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Post by rapunzel77 on Apr 20, 2014 15:06:02 GMT -5
Hello, I noticed there is some discussion over at the Candlekeep boards on what Cattie Brie was exactly saying about Goblins and Orcs. In fact, several posts compared her to a KKK member when she stated they were entirely evil. However, she was just reiterating what Montolio said in Sojourn. In fact there wasn't any difference and she acknowledged that there were very rare exceptions like Noheim. Granted, her reasons for the half-orc exceptions sounded like early 20th century eugenicists, to a degree.
I recall that Salvatore gave an interview just before the Night of the Hunter came out that stated in effect that current fantasy had forgotten what the monster races were meant to be but I can't remember where i read it at. Since Tolkien at least if not earlier, monster races like orcs and goblins were considered embodiments of evil, not completely like demons but close enough. What do you think? What is Salvatore doing here? Or is this something that 5th ed is trying to establish again by clearing the confusion???
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Post by ducky on Apr 20, 2014 16:05:21 GMT -5
That's a good questions, and I have to admit that I'm instinctively rebelling against the idea. To say that no race is capable of self determinate thinking that can lead to making a choice between good or bad just seems wrong to me. Of course, I tend to immerse myself in stories, so perhaps I'm taking fiction too seriously in this case. After all, they're not real.
On the other hand, I wouldn't write any character or creature like this. I'm too fond of complexity and the opportunity to create a new character with each race I write about. Is Cattie Brie right? If she is, what about that orc priestess briefly mentioned that Bruenor and Drizzt traveled with? And didn't Drizzt say he'd had orcs as friends?
I'm confused and intrigued, even more so because Cattie Brie's words just strike me, now, as too black and white. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they're all just monsters.
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Post by ducky on Apr 29, 2014 17:57:33 GMT -5
Another debate I've had with myself: Meilikki's timeline. No matter how I slice it, there's no getting around the fact that she stacked the deck in her favor by putting Drizzt and company to sleep for 18 years. Sure there were benefits to the group, like being forgotten about, for the most part. And yet... The second Drizzt was in her realm of influence she knocks him out, as if Lolth's weapon, Dahlia (whether this was unknowing or not is another big debate!), had thus far failed, and Meilikki wasn't going to further chance anything.
The reason I'm side eyeing this action so hard is because it now makes me question the Goddess's motives. Is she really out to save Drizzt, or is this about winning? The final battle between Dahlia and Cattie Brie leaves Lolth's motives clear, but we would have known it was about winning for her regardless. It's The Unicorn that's got me wondering. I was thinking it was for Drizzt, but witnessing the level of bitter animosity between them in the vicarious ladies' battle now makes me question everything that Meilikki says, even through Cattie Brie.
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Post by rapunzel77 on Apr 30, 2014 10:21:51 GMT -5
Another debate I've had with myself: Meilikki's timeline. No matter how I slice it, there's no getting around the fact that she stacked the deck in her favor by putting Drizzt and company to sleep for 18 years. Sure there were benefits to the group, like being forgotten about, for the most part. And yet... The second Drizzt was in her realm of influence she knocks him out, as if Lolth's weapon, Dahlia (whether this was unknowing or not is another big debate!), had thus far failed, and Meilikki wasn't going to further chance anything. The reason I'm side eyeing this action so hard is because it now makes me question the Goddess's motives. Is she really out to save Drizzt, or is this about winning? The final battle between Dahlia and Cattie Brie leaves Lolth's motives clear, but we would have known it was about winning for her regardless. It's The Unicorn that's got me wondering. I was thinking it was for Drizzt, but witnessing the level of bitter animosity between them in the vicarious ladies' battle now makes me question everything that Meilikki says, even through Cattie Brie. Well, part of allowing Drizzt and company to fall asleep was to get them to the Sundering where bigger events were going to take place. Also, I don't think that Meilikki is going to turn into an evil goddess. I think it is a bit of both as for as motives. She favors Drizzt but the situation is definitely bigger than him. It would seem there is this fierce rivalry between Lolth and Meilikki that is coming to a head. It was clear in Dahlia and Cattie Brie's battle. Cattie Brie was about to give up, feeling she had accomplished her mission but Meilikki made her realize that there was more at stake there. I think it will be clearer in the next book. Since this is a shared world, I don't think that Salvatore is going to suddenly make Meilikki into an evil goddess. We'll just wait and see I guess. |
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Post by ducky on Apr 30, 2014 10:43:42 GMT -5
Oh, I don't think she's evil. No one ever thinks they're evil. But selfish? Yeah, I'm looking at this because the "higher" motives don't seem to be about the world, or Drizzt, but about who will win; Meilikki or Lolth?
And she didn't NEED to move Drizzt forward, he's a Drow, and will live centuries more. The whole thing was bogus to me, and while I don't believe Meilikki will turn out evil, between this and Cattie Brie's new attitude, I'm very suspicious of her motives being more selfish than not. The only thing that doesn't outright convince me of this is Lolth's sudden grab for a piece of the Realm of Magic. That's a big distraction, and it may be that Melly the Uni is trying to keep her from succeeding until...well, someone else grabs for it. Hmm...
I guess my cynicism is high, and that my dislike for Cat's attitude is fueling it more than anything else. I remember Montolio's attitude, but the world has gotten bigger since then, and changed more. Cat's dismissal of "abberations" was disturbing all by itself.
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Post by Robillard on Apr 30, 2014 10:55:43 GMT -5
Hello, I noticed there is some discussion over at the Candlekeep boards on what Cattie Brie was exactly saying about Goblins and Orcs. In fact, several posts compared her to a KKK member when she stated they were entirely evil. However, she was just reiterating what Montolio said in Sojourn. In fact there wasn't any difference and she acknowledged that there were very rare exceptions like Noheim. Granted, her reasons for the half-orc exceptions sounded like early 20th century eugenicists, to a degree. I recall that Salvatore gave an interview just before the Night of the Hunter came out that stated in effect that current fantasy had forgotten what the monster races were meant to be but I can't remember where i read it at. Since Tolkien at least if not earlier, monster races like orcs and goblins were considered embodiments of evil, not completely like demons but close enough. What do you think? What is Salvatore doing here? Or is this something that 5th ed is trying to establish again by clearing the confusion??? Unfortunately I can chok 90% of this up to 5th Ed, aka DnD Next, and their decision to make orcs and goblinkin moral less. so to me it wasn't so much character development or a juicy plot twist as it was a way to segway into the necessary regression of orcs back to unorganized tribes and not a civilization/playable race anymore... But as we know, my views tend to be simple and cynical. |
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Post by rapunzel77 on Apr 30, 2014 10:58:15 GMT -5
Yeah, her attitude was very odd. We will just have to wait and see what the big picture is. Perhaps it is the case that the orcs are really there to be ready to destroy the Silver Marches and other places and that is something Meilikki will not stand for. It would also seem that she isn't the only one concerned about the situation judging from the Dwarf gods reactions so far. Again, the situation is bigger than Drizzt. I thought it odd that she moved him and the gang up a couple of years but that could also be Salvatore's way to getting everyone to speed, who knows though. Part of the motives are selfish. The gods vie for control, etc and that is partly what it is but since Meilikki is the goddess of nature and keeper of the natural order, she sees beings like orcs, the undead, goblins, etc as distortions of nature and thus, they must be eradicated. Although much had changed in the realms, I think that Montolio's viewpoint still holds true, at least to what Meilikki's view is.
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Post by rapunzel77 on Apr 30, 2014 11:06:06 GMT -5
Hello, I noticed there is some discussion over at the Candlekeep boards on what Cattie Brie was exactly saying about Goblins and Orcs. In fact, several posts compared her to a KKK member when she stated they were entirely evil. However, she was just reiterating what Montolio said in Sojourn. In fact there wasn't any difference and she acknowledged that there were very rare exceptions like Noheim. Granted, her reasons for the half-orc exceptions sounded like early 20th century eugenicists, to a degree. I recall that Salvatore gave an interview just before the Night of the Hunter came out that stated in effect that current fantasy had forgotten what the monster races were meant to be but I can't remember where i read it at. Since Tolkien at least if not earlier, monster races like orcs and goblins were considered embodiments of evil, not completely like demons but close enough. What do you think? What is Salvatore doing here? Or is this something that 5th ed is trying to establish again by clearing the confusion??? Unfortunately I can chok 90% of this up to 5th Ed, aka DnD Next, and their decision to make orcs and goblinkin moral less. so to me it wasn't so much character development or a juicy plot twist as it was a way to segway into the necessary regression of orcs back to unorganized tribes and not a civilization/playable race anymore... But as we know, my views tend to be simple and cynical. You're right Robillard. That is the reason why he's trying to segway into the necessary regression. I did think it odd at the beginning that orcs would attempt to have a civilization of their own but I went with it anyway. However, in re-reading the Hunter Blades trilogy and the Orc King, it seems to make more sense that they would regress since the kingdom was tenuous to begin with. |
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Post by Robillard on Apr 30, 2014 11:14:05 GMT -5
Unfortunately I can chok 90% of this up to 5th Ed, aka DnD Next, and their decision to make orcs and goblinkin moral less. so to me it wasn't so much character development or a juicy plot twist as it was a way to segway into the necessary regression of orcs back to unorganized tribes and not a civilization/playable race anymore... But as we know, my views tend to be simple and cynical. You're right Robillard. That is the reason why he's trying to segway into the necessary regression. I did think it odd at the beginning that orcs would attempt to have a civilization of their own but I went with it anyway. However, in re-reading the Hunter Blades trilogy and the Orc King, it seems to make more sense that they would regress since the kingdom was tenuous to begin with. They tried something new and hated it. I play the Neverwinter MMO so I actually got to see the orcs trying to be civil and live in the Tower District of Neverwinter, but they were slowly becoming more and more hostile. At least they tried to smooth it over before saying "Nope, not gonna work, kill 'em off." |
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Post by rapunzel77 on Apr 30, 2014 11:24:23 GMT -5
You're right Robillard. That is the reason why he's trying to segway into the necessary regression. I did think it odd at the beginning that orcs would attempt to have a civilization of their own but I went with it anyway. However, in re-reading the Hunter Blades trilogy and the Orc King, it seems to make more sense that they would regress since the kingdom was tenuous to begin with. They tried something new and hated it. I play the Neverwinter MMO so I actually got to see the orcs trying to be civil and live in the Tower District of Neverwinter, but they were slowly becoming more and more hostile. At least they tried to smooth it over before saying "Nope, not gonna work, kill 'em off." That figures. I admit that I am not a gamer. I have never played D & D or many other video games. I've watched some that my nephew plays (call of duty, resident evil, dragon age, etc) but that's about it. However, I did do research on the changes taking place in the realms so I know that the Sundering, etc is all tied in with the game. |
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Post by Robillard on Apr 30, 2014 11:39:52 GMT -5
yeah, there's a lot of stuff coming. Akar Kessel was reborn, Valindra Shadowmantle defeated... and army of evil dragons led by their ancient queen Tiamat who has been reborn... you know, little things like that...
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Post by Sargai on Apr 30, 2014 13:19:29 GMT -5
yeah, there's a lot of stuff coming. Akar Kessel was reborn, Valindra Shadowmantle defeated... and army of evil dragons led by their ancient queen Tiamat who has been reborn... you know, little things like that... Does that mean that the Crystal Shard is back in play again and, if so, can we let some other author--or gamer--deal with it? --- One of the things that most turned me off this latest book was Cattie-Brie the Bigot. This was a character who, at one point, argued with both Bruenor and Drizzt about how to handle goblins in Mithral Hall's tunnels: From there, she has taken a black and white stance on the situation that are no doubt influenced by Mielikki's own opinions. I hope that this is not an attempt to regress the setting to the point that the Companions (and players) have more endless fodder to off without a second's hesitation, but rather something more complex that will be explored over the course of the Companions Codex. |
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Post by Robillard on Apr 30, 2014 16:09:23 GMT -5
Does that mean that the Crystal Shard is back in play again and, if so, can we let some other author--or gamer--deal with it? The Crystal Shard was essentially turned to dust when the tower was destroyed in Icewind Dale- The dust actually became part of the landscape and is now corrupting the land (turning people mad when they come into contact with it) and is causing war between Ten Towns and the Arcane Brotherhood. Its going to be a major module in D&D Next and is being addressed in Neverwinter Online, not sure if Bob's story will skirt around that somehow but he and I did talk about the module briefly... |
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Post by Sargai on Apr 30, 2014 16:34:23 GMT -5
So is it ignoring the other times that Crenshinibon turned up in the other books? The tower might have gone down after Akar's defeat, but the crystal survived to travel all around the Realms.
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Post by Lore on May 1, 2014 4:14:00 GMT -5
That's a good questions, and I have to admit that I'm instinctively rebelling against the idea. To say that no race is capable of self determinate thinking that can lead to making a choice between good or bad just seems wrong to me. Of course, I tend to immerse myself in stories, so perhaps I'm taking fiction too seriously in this case. After all, they're not real. On the other hand, I wouldn't write any character or creature like this. I'm too fond of complexity and the opportunity to create a new character with each race I write about. Is Cattie Brie right? If she is, what about that orc priestess briefly mentioned that Bruenor and Drizzt traveled with? And didn't Drizzt say he'd had orcs as friends? I'm confused and intrigued, even more so because Cattie Brie's words just strike me, now, as too black and white. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe they're all just monsters. I feel the exact same way about viewing a race/species as wholly evil. Even (especially) in a fictional setting. Non-fiction is about reality. Fiction, however fantastical the setting might be is still about plausibility which is like reality's second cousin. What is real is always plausible but what is plausible is not always real. I wish I knew more about Forgotten Realms history so I could get deeper in to the discussion but alas, my knowledge of D&D lore does not go past Salvatore's works and DragonLance along with a smattering of knowledge I've picked up in random D&D books. But my opinions as a writer cannot justify making an entire species wholly evil for the sheer purpose of having a stable (and eventually generic) bad guy. I find few exceptions in this rule. It is understandable for demons to be wholly evil but even their motives should go beyond, "Argh! I'm the bad guy!" I did find it kind of out-of-character for Catti-Brie to refer to all orcs and goblin-kin as wholly evil but people also tend to forget that she was devastated when she killed a person for the first time (she shot a wizard with her bow, I forget her name, though) and even mentioned that it was different from killing an orc or a goblin. I'm all for reading in to things but I never try to read too deeply or else I might find exactly what I'm looking for, even if I unconsciously fabricate it. So really, I think Catti-Brie's comment spoke less of her character and more of an attempt to keeps orcs in the typical evil monster role that Tolkein created them for. This is why Obould and the entire idea of the rise of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows appeases to me. I really wanted to see the orcs rise up in to something more than a convenient monster to be slaughtered en masse. Then the Transitions trilogy came out and it sort of shot down everything that I thought Salvatore was leading up to. I was totally caught off guard by the time jump because I never kept up-to-date on what was going on elsewhere in the Forgotten Realms and I always read the tales of Drizzt and the other Companions as something that stood apart from the rest of the Realms (since they were all I really knew). I know, I know. It wasn't Bob's idea. But still. I don't like to think of orcs or even goblins as naturally evil. Heck, I think goblins are simply more stupid and savage by nature than evil. When you get treated like the scum of the world for so long, you tend to develop a bad attitude. The same can be said of the orcs who are much like goblins, only smarter. |
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