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Post by rapunzel77 on May 15, 2014 14:48:42 GMT -5
I've noticed a lot of Drizzt criticism on other boards. Some say that he should have been killed off a while ago since they claim he is a very annoying and whiny guy. Also, there is more appeal for anti-heroes or villains but Drizzt doesn't fit either one. Is there any more room for flawed romantic heroes in fantasy/sci-fi literature or are popular tastes more cynical to the degree that noble characters are not appealing anymore? Could it just be that his reflections are annoying? What do you think?
My opinion is that he is a good, noble, and very flawed character. The reflections serve as a window into his soul/mind at various points in his life, both good and bad. Even though he is a bad "donkey", he naturally has a sensitive and gentle nature. I guess many are put off by such a character. Granted, there are times where I'd like to slap him and tell him to get a grip (in some parts of the Hunter Blades and Neverwinter books). I guess I just don't understand the "hate" on some of the other boards.
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Post by Dragon King on May 15, 2014 15:25:50 GMT -5
Hmmm, I will admit I have found myself sometimes saying "For the love of god Drizzt, stop being such an Emo." But I don't think that he should have been killed off or anything such as that, he definitely won't suit everyone's tastes, but there are still many who will find his character appealing. I particularly enjoyed seeing Drizzt when he just emerged from the Underdark and trying to find a way to live among the other surface dwelling races, every day for him then was a struggle to show that, despite his heritage, he was different to the average Drow. (I totally agree with you about parts of the Hunter's Blades series. lol)
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Post by Lore on May 15, 2014 20:03:51 GMT -5
Drizzt does in fact suffer from a lot of these problems and I think that the real issue is that he is the main character. When I read science fiction and fantasy, I'd rather read a story about a group of characters that does not have a single main character. I know, I know. There are always the Companions and other characters but when you get right down to it, the stories are all about Drizzt. This puts so much focus on him that were these traits assigned to another character who was not such a huge part of the picture, nobody would think twice about it.
It is because of this that I would really like to see Salvatore work on another series, whether it is his Corona series or anything else really. A lot of us have read Salvatore's other works and so he is obviously a good writer with or without Drizzt. It is not Drizzt who makes him great but rather he makes Drizzt great but it has gotten to the point where I'm actually getting sick of the drow ranger.
I like that Drizzt has gone through some serious growth as a character but these changes are often either minute or in some way justified according to current circumstances. Let me see Drizzt finally snap and brutally slaughter a foe out of nothing more than blind rage and I mean the sort of foe who probably deserves a good whooping but ended up getting butchered instead. Is this a bad example? Probably. But I'm making such an extreme example because I think that Drizzt's character needs an extreme overhaul to remain interesting. He's an elf. He's going to live for hundreds of years and yet he seems to be very much the same dark elf I remember from the Icewind Dale trilogy. Sure he has gone through a few philosophical ideals but he has yet to truly stray from his ranger path.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Salvatore should overhaul the Drizzt character and turn him in to some sort of anti-hero just to "keep things fresh" but that he needs to do something to allow for a greater depth of growth. Either that or leave Drizzt alone for a while and write something else. I would love to see an original sci-fi epic by Salvatore or even a new type of fantasy.
So there you have it. Am I as much a Salvatore fan as I was when I first started reading his work? Definitely. I am not, however as much of a Drizzt fan as I was when I first started reading his story.
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Post by rapunzel77 on May 16, 2014 10:50:09 GMT -5
Would this necessarily be development though? I understand that he needs more in depth development but I don't think that straying from his principles is a good thing. I think what makes him a strong character is that in spite of all his trials, he continues to maintain his principles although at times he has taken the route that you've said (Hunter Blades trilogy when he attacks orcs in blind rage). Even after the severe trial of losing his loved ones, he attempts to maintain his principles although he did fall into bouts of cynicism that was so bad that Jarlaxle had to knock some sense in him.
What sort of extreme overhaul would he need to undergo to keep him interesting though? Why would making him more like an evil villain be necessarily interesting? I know you said that he doesn't necessarily need to be an anti-hero but what would constitute a fresh change?
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Post by Lore on May 17, 2014 2:16:57 GMT -5
Would this necessarily be development though? I understand that he needs more in depth development but I don't think that straying from his principles is a good thing. I think what makes him a strong character is that in spite of all his trials, he continues to maintain his principles although at times he has taken the route that you've said (Hunter Blades trilogy when he attacks orcs in blind rage). Even after the severe trial of losing his loved ones, he attempts to maintain his principles although he did fall into bouts of cynicism that was so bad that Jarlaxle had to knock some sense in him. What sort of extreme overhaul would he need to undergo to keep him interesting though? Why would making him more like an evil villain be necessarily interesting? I know you said that he doesn't necessarily need to be an anti-hero but what would constitute a fresh change? But I also mentioned that he is an elf and he is going to live for hundreds of years. It would seem that in the Forgotten Realms, elves are a lot like humans in that they come in many shades from good to evil. Yet a single human can go through many changes through his short life from being a young murderer to an old man who has repented for his crimes. What does this say about a person who has lived for hundreds of years as something that is only a little less than a saint? Even in the Hunter's Blades trilogy there is a viable excuse for Drizzt to dip back in to his Hunter persona. Number one, it is the beginning of a war and war can make even a good person embrace extreme violence for reasons of anger, survival, etc. Then there is the fact that he is killing orcs and in almost any D&D world, orcs are more akin to monsters than anything else. Even Catti-brie laments the first time she killed a human even though she had killed countless orcs before that and in the narration even went so far as to differentiate orcs from humans (and other races) in such a way that it made killing them more or less okay. So honestly, Drizzt has not really done anything out of character yet. But I'm glad that you noticed that I said making Drizzt some sort of anti-hero or having him stray from his path for the sheer sake of change is not necessarily a good idea. Yet again, it might be. How often do we really see elves or other similarly long-lived races as main characters in stories like these? Quite often, I am sure but how many of them has as extensive of a history and as many books as does Drizzt Do'Urden? Since the character's conception, literally hundreds of years have passed in the Forgotten Realms and 25 years have passed since his first publication. That is a very long time for a single author to write a single character and for that single character to, more or less retain every single one of his morals and virtues despite being through grievous losses and traumatic events that in the real-world would drive most people in to insanity (PTSD, anyone?). Now I'm sure I'm sounding pretty harsh and maybe even a little over-critical. I certainly do not want to compare how an elf in a fantasy world deals with trauma to a person in the real world but after 25 years, the character needs to change for the pure sake of change. I feel bad for saying that but Drizzt is not a character who has been through countless re-boots like other beloved icons such as super heroes but rather has lived through a story that can be chronologically traced. Salvatore isn't just writing for new fans, he is also writing for those fans who have been with him since the beginning. How long can a character literally remain the same person without those alpha fans growing bored and giving up? I cannot stress enough how I do not want my opinion to be interpreted as changing the character just to spice things up. Surely such changes should make sense within the circumstances of the story. But I feel like there has already been a huge opportunity for that and it was passed up in the form of Dahlia Sin'felle. Here was an excellent chance for Drizzt to do more than just grow as a character but to change. He had strong feelings for her, possibly even loved her and yet they were very much opposites of one another. Yet when it came time that Dahlia revealed her traumatic childhood to Drizzt, it was played off as the drow being unable to relate (not surprising) and so at the end of it all, it came back to Drizzt being the same person that he has always been. Granted, this was a great turn in the way that it set-up for her relationship with Entreri but it still left the main character being not that much different from the character that he was 25 years ago at his conception. What Dahlia offered was for the character of Drizzt to walk down a different and even more complex path and while such a scenario was briefly touched upon, it was ultimately abandoned and now we have the return of his old friends (more or less since they are only 'reincarnated' to the best of my knowledge) and it's like we've come full circle without really getting anywhere. In a way, I feel like it makes a lot of the trials and tribulations that Drizzt has been through meaningless. More importantly, it makes a character who has been around for 25 years kind of dull and no longer as fresh and exciting as he once was. He used to be a ranger of a benevolent goddess, the renegade drow from the City of Spiders and now, well now he's just Drizzt. So to answer your question as to what would constitute a fresh change, at this point... almost anything. So long as it makes sense within the context of the story, of course. Anyways, I hope I haven't bored you all to death. I get on a roll sometimes and go in to overload. :]
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Post by Robillard on May 17, 2014 19:44:28 GMT -5
Everyone knows I have a ridiculously simplistic view on everything, but personally I don't feel that Drizzt is boring or angsty. Drizzt is in a sense just like everyone of us, only he's grown up on a slightly grander scale. In my middle school years I sank into despair and became "boring and angsty" myself, but that is part of growth and I, like Drizzt, grew out of it and learned from it.
Drizzt grows and reacts to his environment, so inevitably as his situation changes, so will he. As his relationships change, so will he... It only took him a hundred years and a few more to realize he has a bond with Artemis Entreri, but progress is progress.
I think of Drizzt as an old friend and you don't write a friend off just because they've gone through a phase. I look forward to walking his path some more~
/nerd rant disengaged
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Post by ducky on May 17, 2014 21:02:57 GMT -5
What Robillard said (I was going to quote you, but I kept messing up, and the edit feature wouldn't let me edit properly)! I was going to try and add more to the conversation, but my brain's refusing to function. Apologies!
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Post by Lore on May 17, 2014 21:21:35 GMT -5
Everyone knows I have a ridiculously simplistic view on everything, but personally I don't feel that Drizzt is boring or angsty. Drizzt is in a sense just like everyone of us, obly he's grown up on a slightly grander scale. In my middle school years I sank into despair and became "boring and angsty" myself, but that is part of growth and I, like Drizzt, grew out of it and learned from it. Drizzt grows and reacts to his environment, so inevitably as his situation changes, so will he. As his relationships change, so will he... It only took him a hundred years a few more to realize he has a bond with Artemis Entreri, but progress is progress. I think of Drizzt as an old friend and you don't write a friend off just because they've gone through a phase. I look forward to walking his path some more~ /nerd rant disengaged But is he really growing and reacting to his environment? After a hundred plus years, all of his old friends have returned to him and (as far as I know) he is back in Icewind Dale. Seems like everything is remaining the same to me. But then, I also tend to fall out of stories when higher powers such as gods and other divine entities start getting involved. I'm a more down-to-Earth story line kind of guy. Just like how I love Spider-Man but I don't like it when they team him up with people like the Silver Surfer. I'd rather him see him swinging through NYC rather than the stars. That is similar to what is happening with Drizzt. His story is being influenced by divine intervention. I don't mind it when the gods (or whatever pantheon/single deity is a part of the world) is a part of the story but I prefer their influence to be less direct. Sort of like how Denier (I hope I got that name right) was not a direct part of the Cleric plot line. Sure his god is where Cadderly got his amazing powers from but Denier never truly stepped in and influenced the outcome of anything. So I might be a little biased in that regard. I liked it when Drizzt pondered the existence of the gods (even his own) and there was no divine intervention. I still like Drizzt. Nothing will change that. I just wish Salvatore would take a break for a little while and dazzle us with a new epic (or focus more on Corona). *DragonLance is the exception when it comes to divine intervention/influence in a story. The premise of the story of the Heroes of the Lance had to do with the gods from the very beginning and I knew that going in to the series.
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Post by Robillard on May 17, 2014 21:34:02 GMT -5
Everyone knows I have a ridiculously simplistic view on everything, but personally I don't feel that Drizzt is boring or angsty. Drizzt is in a sense just like everyone of us, obly he's grown up on a slightly grander scale. In my middle school years I sank into despair and became "boring and angsty" myself, but that is part of growth and I, like Drizzt, grew out of it and learned from it. Drizzt grows and reacts to his environment, so inevitably as his situation changes, so will he. As his relationships change, so will he... It only took him a hundred years a few more to realize he has a bond with Artemis Entreri, but progress is progress. I think of Drizzt as an old friend and you don't write a friend off just because they've gone through a phase. I look forward to walking his path some more~ /nerd rant disengaged But is he really growing and reacting to his environment? After a hundred plus years, all of his old friends have returned to him and (as far as I know) he is back in Icewind Dale. Seems like everything is remaining the same to me. But then, I also tend to fall out of stories when higher powers such as gods and other divine entities start getting involved. I'm a more down-to-Earth story line kind of guy. Just like how I love Spider-Man but I don't like it when they team him up with people like the Silver Surfer. I'd rather him see him swinging through NYC rather than the stars. That is similar to what is happening with Drizzt. His story is being influenced by divine intervention. I don't mind it when the gods (or whatever pantheon/single deity is a part of the world) is a part of the story but I prefer their influence to be less direct. Sort of like how Denier (I hope I got that name right) was not a direct part of the Cleric plot line. Sure his god is where Cadderly got his amazing powers from but Denier never truly stepped in and influenced the outcome of anything. So I might be a little biased in that regard. I liked it when Drizzt pondered the existence of the gods (even his own) and there was no divine intervention. I still like Drizzt. Nothing will change that. I just wish Salvatore would take a break for a little while and dazzle us with a new epic (or focus more on Corona). *DragonLance is the exception when it comes to divine intervention/influence in a story. The premise of the story of the Heroes of the Lance had to do with the gods from the very beginning and I knew that going in to the series. As much as I would like to continue the debate, I choose to take Drizzt at face value and as I said, I value the friendship of the character and of Bob Salvatore. Because I talk with him on a regular basis I understand- perhaps more than most- that he IS in fact attempting to dazzle us with something new and has just completed a large portion of unbelievably large scale project (the Demonwars campaign setting). I dare say that at this stage of the game he is trying to encourage others to branch out create their own adventures rather than expecting his to tell their stories for them their way. He has said before that his characters tell him their story, he just writes it down. I like that about him and I feel like that is a major selling point for these novels- If Drizzt were a real person, I wouldn't walk up to him and say "I don't like the way your mind works, change it." and I certainly wouldn't say that to RAS either. His characters are consistent, they are themselves, and any major change in Drizzt personality- in my opinion- would just be out of character. Maybe I'm so attached to the characters because I take less ownership of them and choose to enjoy the ride rather than psychoanalyze... Who knows.
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Post by Lore on May 17, 2014 22:05:29 GMT -5
But is he really growing and reacting to his environment? After a hundred plus years, all of his old friends have returned to him and (as far as I know) he is back in Icewind Dale. Seems like everything is remaining the same to me. But then, I also tend to fall out of stories when higher powers such as gods and other divine entities start getting involved. I'm a more down-to-Earth story line kind of guy. Just like how I love Spider-Man but I don't like it when they team him up with people like the Silver Surfer. I'd rather him see him swinging through NYC rather than the stars. That is similar to what is happening with Drizzt. His story is being influenced by divine intervention. I don't mind it when the gods (or whatever pantheon/single deity is a part of the world) is a part of the story but I prefer their influence to be less direct. Sort of like how Denier (I hope I got that name right) was not a direct part of the Cleric plot line. Sure his god is where Cadderly got his amazing powers from but Denier never truly stepped in and influenced the outcome of anything. So I might be a little biased in that regard. I liked it when Drizzt pondered the existence of the gods (even his own) and there was no divine intervention. I still like Drizzt. Nothing will change that. I just wish Salvatore would take a break for a little while and dazzle us with a new epic (or focus more on Corona). *DragonLance is the exception when it comes to divine intervention/influence in a story. The premise of the story of the Heroes of the Lance had to do with the gods from the very beginning and I knew that going in to the series. As much as I would like to continue the debate, I choose to take Drizzt at face value and as I said, I value the friendship of the character and of Bob Salvatore. Because I talk with him on a regular basis I understand- perhaps more than most- that he IS in fact attempting to dazzle us with something new and has just completed a large portion of unbelievably large scale project (the Demonwars campaign setting). I dare say that at this stage of the game he is trying to encourage others to branch out create their own adventures rather than expecting his to tell their stories for them their way. He has said before that his characters tell him their story, he just writes it down. I like that about him and I feel like that is a major selling point for these novels- If Drizzt were a real person, I wouldn't walk up to him and say "I don't like the way your mind works, change it." and I certainly wouldn't say that to RAS either. His characters are consistent, they are themselves, and any major change in Drizzt personality- in my opinion- would just be out of character. Maybe I'm so attached to the characters because I take less ownership of them and choose to enjoy the ride rather than psychoanalyze... Who knows. Well, I don't think there is any need to take it so personally. I also wouldn't say that this is a debate. Just people sharing their opinion. But I think that any author should be flattered that one of their characters would by psycho-analyzed. I certainly would be. I also certainly would not waste my time analyzing a character that has not in some way touched my life and I would never write such a long analysis on one who I do not appreciate. In fact, one of my favorite things to do when reading a book is to analyze the characters and get in to their heads. That's how I come to appreciate the characters in any story I read. If you go back and re-read what I wrote, you would see that I do not desire some change in Drizzt's character that would not make sense within the context of the story and the life of the character. Personally, I happen to love the way Drizzt's mind works but I also do not think that there is anything wrong with wanting something more from one of your favorite authors. I would also never 'take ownership' of any character I read. That's just selfish. But there is also nothing wrong with contemplating where a character is going, what their next course actions may be and, more importantly why they are making the decisions they made and how their past decisions got them to where they are currently at. In fact, that is a large part of why people desire something such as an online forum where they can share these thoughts and get the opinions of fellow fans (and even non-fans).
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Post by Robillard on May 18, 2014 10:35:28 GMT -5
As much as I would like to continue the debate, I choose to take Drizzt at face value and as I said, I value the friendship of the character and of Bob Salvatore. Because I talk with him on a regular basis I understand- perhaps more than most- that he IS in fact attempting to dazzle us with something new and has just completed a large portion of unbelievably large scale project (the Demonwars campaign setting). I dare say that at this stage of the game he is trying to encourage others to branch out create their own adventures rather than expecting his to tell their stories for them their way. He has said before that his characters tell him their story, he just writes it down. I like that about him and I feel like that is a major selling point for these novels- If Drizzt were a real person, I wouldn't walk up to him and say "I don't like the way your mind works, change it." and I certainly wouldn't say that to RAS either. His characters are consistent, they are themselves, and any major change in Drizzt personality- in my opinion- would just be out of character. Maybe I'm so attached to the characters because I take less ownership of them and choose to enjoy the ride rather than psychoanalyze... Who knows. Well, I don't think there is any need to take it so personally. I also wouldn't say that this is a debate. Just people sharing their opinion. But I think that any author should be flattered that one of their characters would by psycho-analyzed. I certainly would be. I also certainly would not waste my time analyzing a character that has not in some way touched my life and I would never write such a long analysis on one who I do not appreciate. In fact, one of my favorite things to do when reading a book is to analyze the characters and get in to their heads. That's how I come to appreciate the characters in any story I read. If you go back and re-read what I wrote, you would see that I do not desire some change in Drizzt's character that would not make sense within the context of the story and the life of the character. Personally, I happen to love the way Drizzt's mind works but I also do not think that there is anything wrong with wanting something more from one of your favorite authors. I would also never 'take ownership' of any character I read. That's just selfish. But there is also nothing wrong with contemplating where a character is going, what their next course actions may be and, more importantly why they are making the decisions they made and how their past decisions got them to where they are currently at. In fact, that is a large part of why people desire something such as an online forum where they can share these thoughts and get the opinions of fellow fans (and even non-fans). Not taking it personally at all- I was just trying to say I'm passing the baton because its not really my area of study, so to speak, but I would still like to hear the opinions the others. It was a poorly phrased attempt to move myself out of the way so that others may contribute. lol
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Post by mattymoron on May 18, 2014 15:00:12 GMT -5
I honestly continue to find Drizzt to be a compelling character. I've never found him to be especially stagnant, and Bob usually writes him with enough earnestness that I root for him to find the right path. He's just a good dude, trying to do the best he can in any given situation, even when (as was the case in the Neverwinter Saga), he may not be in the best environment to make good decisions. I can definitely relate.
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Post by Sargai on May 18, 2014 18:08:21 GMT -5
The Drizzt books were my introduction to fantasy and I have been reading both for the past decade. In those ten years, I myself have changed and my tastes have changed. I no longer enjoy what I liked two or three years ago and back then, I'd fallen out of love with what I'd enjoyed before that. Drizzt is not a boring character. The amount of fans out there who adore him speaks volumes against the notion that he is. Year after year, Drizzt rushes into adventure and legions of readers follow right behind, excited about what they are about to read, excited about what they'll read in the future, and eager to go back and relive the adventures they've already had.
I am not one of those people. After ten years of changing tastes, I find Drizzt's story dull. I have joined him on enough adventures that they no longer excite me. I still join him, but more often than not I will duck out early while no one is looking. Drizzt didn't follow me on my journey, did not evolve to suit my tastes. And that is OK. It isn't Bob's job to ensure that his books are to my liking and it is incredibly difficult to write a character who is still fresh and appealing to everyone after more than twenty books. I am happy that there are people out there who aren't like me in that regard.
So, yes. Drizzt is a dull character to me and I can't deny that he has wallowed in angst in the past and probably will again in the future. I certainly will admit that I've wished he would go away. The books where he is reduced to a supporting character or doesn't appear at all are often the ones I enjoy the most. But, that is hardly fair to the people who still love him.
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Post by Bladesinger on May 18, 2014 22:04:45 GMT -5
Some of my favorite books just happen to have Drizzt in them, that being said I was (kind of) hoping RA Salvatore would move away from him and the group and start up a new group of characters.
It's bittersweet for me I guess, I want to continue reading Drizzts novels (and believe me I will read every one as they're released) but I find myself ready to move on from the Companions of the Hall.
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Post by Lore on May 19, 2014 0:36:20 GMT -5
The Drizzt books were my introduction to fantasy and I have been reading both for the past decade. In those ten years, I myself have changed and my tastes have changed. I no longer enjoy what I liked two or three years ago and back then, I'd fallen out of love with what I'd enjoyed before that. Drizzt is not a boring character. The amount of fans out there who adore him speaks volumes against the notion that he is. Year after year, Drizzt rushes into adventure and legions of readers follow right behind, excited about what they are about to read, excited about what they'll read in the future, and eager to go back and relive the adventures they've already had. I am not one of those people. After ten years of changing tastes, I find Drizzt's story dull. I have joined him on enough adventures that they no longer excite me. I still join him, but more often than not I will duck out early while no one is looking. Drizzt didn't follow me on my journey, did not evolve to suit my tastes. And that is OK. It isn't Bob's job to ensure that his books are to my liking and it is incredibly difficult to write a character who is still fresh and appealing to everyone after more than twenty books. I am happy that there are people out there who aren't like me in that regard. So, yes. Drizzt is a dull character to me and I can't deny that he has wallowed in angst in the past and probably will again in the future. I certainly will admit that I've wished he would go away. The books where he is reduced to a supporting character or doesn't appear at all are often the ones I enjoy the most. But, that is hardly fair to the people who still love him. It was about 10 years ago for me, too when I started reading Drizzt but he was definitely not my introduction to fantasy. My own introduction to fantasy started with Norse mythology and from there the DragonLance Chronicles but that's another story for another time. My own tastes have definitely changed over time as well but I still enjoy Drizzt's earlier adventures as much as I did when I first read them. But to be honest I really started to lose interest when they did the time jump and that actually had nothing to do with Salvatore. I got so hyped with the the Hunter's Blades trilogy and the direction that it was going and then I was totally caught off guard with the 180 turn that Transitions took. I know a lot of people say that Drizzt got real angsty in the Hunter's Blades trilogy but I felt like it was pretty well justified. Everything had been set up so perfectly well in the chaos of the sudden orc rising so that an already pessimistic Drizzt thought that he had lost all of his friends. I thought it was a nice glimpse in to how Drizzt would react if he really did suddenly lose everybody he cared about which was actually another reason why I didn't like Transitions because that is exactly what happened (and it happened just as suddenly) and yet the Hunter didn't show his face then. But the truth is that I enjoy Salvatore's writing so much that I really want to see him do something more than just Drizzt. I especially enjoyed the Sellswords trilogy and that was the one that caught me off guard the most. I was reading the Paths of Darkness and I swear I got about a quarter of the way through Servant of the Shard before I realized that it was strictly about Jarlaxle and Entreri so that was rather interesting. In fact, I'd love to see a spin-off with Kimmuriel Oblodra though I don't really remember what happened to him. But now I'm just babbling so I'll quit while I'm ahead.
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